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Thread: Reality, and what it means to you.

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    Administrator Ross's Avatar
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    Reality, and what it means to you.

    I'm prompted in starting this thread for discussion on reality...reality as we know it, as a collective (general Human perceptions) which is incredibly diverse, and from an individuals perspective, which is equally diverse.

    For me, all this diversity ultimately comes down to this:

    "Perceptions of reality are based on the belief system, which are constructs of the information received"

    And that means all information...from the cradle to the grave, as it were. Some will argue that some of this information has been carried over from another life. The reincarnation meme in all it's diversity.

    Right, wrong, truth...or not, subjective or objective, we all form perceptions of reality as a collective, and in more recent times, an individual can reasonably express their own personal perceptions outside of the common acceptance without being burned at the stake, committing blasphemy or deemed a heretic.

    Yes a massive topic already discussed in various forms for eons, and these days cyber space offers an avenue for all and every topic, which we have all encounter in terms of "whats out there" in the realm of the Human mind.

    So I'm gonna start, from a place where I am at today, aged 50 and a lifetime of experiences...

    I wrote below over at Nexus; a response in trying to explain my perception, as a member said she could bend spoons with her mind as a child, and my response (post) fits the bill as a starting point from my own perspective for this thread.


    ********************************************


    An attempt at explaining my position....

    My reality is here, in this body, living on this Planet...and sure, that could be a program running, kinda like "The Matrix" style, inasfar as I have zero view of the illusion really go on...but of course that all falls into the "possible" basket and a million miles from "probable or absolute" at this stage of our understanding.


    But here is what I do know, and why I think the way I do...if it at all helps anyone to understand my perceptions...because generally I'm considered unforgiving...and there is a reason for that.

    I prefer quantitative, rational knowledge...after all, this is what we do as Humans, seek knowledge.

    And this is what I do know...


    I was born a Human being. I am living for a duration, and then I die.

    Everything else, before and after this life, as we call it, is to me "speculative"



    This is why I prefer to operate in probables and absolutes...and trust me, I have contemplated, read, observed, studied, experienced all kinds...I am a thinker, pure and simple. I am designed this way either from randomness or by pre-determinism, of which matters not to me here in this life. What matters is I think.

    I do not trust much at all...but I do trust that which I can quantify, that which I can reproduce, that which I can observe and share with many others...which is why my heart, in terms of knowledge and Scientific evaluation, lays in the Universe. This is where I have learn't much in terms of "procedure and evaluation" how to use my brain, from the Scientists who work in the Cosmology fields and theoretical Physic fields in particular, using the process of observation, predictable equations, searching for understanding, and all done in the best "rational procedure" we can...and all done from an exploratory point of view, not by fear...

    So, much is speculative, and I am unforgiving when discussions are delivered with such certainty as 'valid' when it is speculative...including in the minds of individuals who vehemently insist it is the truth...whatever they may say using little or nothing as validation. I simply do not trust the minds of Men and Woman...not when the majority of Humans run a-muck believing all and everything without any rational or due process...and when actions and behaviours are exhibited by Humans, often rational is replaced with "justification" which when you dig enough, more often than not is a by-product of fear.
    Last edited by Ross; 03-28-2015 at 03:45 PM.

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    Re: Reality, and what it means to you.

    What else do we know:

    life as we understand it now, here on Earth, would not of taken place had certain events in our solar system not occurred.

    With the available advanced tech in telescopes, we have learned thanks to the Kepler telescope in particular, that life here on Earth, as we understand it, would not have produced the abundance of life that we have (if at all) had it not been for Jupiter and Saturn. Nearly all galactic solar systems observed show that Gas giants reside closer to their Sun...we thought prior to these observations that Gas giants like our own, reside further out from their central Star.

    We are now starting to concede we are more of an exception rather than rule. Admittedly, the Universe is a huge playground, and we have only started to understand more than we did.

    The point is this, compelling evidence is showing that our own gas giants were once close to the Sun. A tidal gravitation battle ensued between Jupiter and Saturn, forcing each other outwards, playing billiards along the way literally shaping our solar system as it is today. The evidence also suggests that these two masses will continue to change the form of our system in the future, albeit on a galactic time scale...this naturally offers the question between randomness and pre-determinism...and the parallels of the primeval soup and random occurrence of early cells...

    We also know, while life already existed, had it not been for that space body 65 million years ago, Humans and most mammals would not of evolved as they have, and within reasonable probability, the reptile species would still be the dominant species today...and again it begs the question of random events versus pre-determinism....
    Last edited by Ross; 03-25-2015 at 12:59 PM.

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    Senior Member Fred Steeves's Avatar
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    Re: Reality, and what it means to you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ross View Post
    and again it begs the question of random events versus determinism....
    Ross, shouldn't that be free will versus determinism?
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    Re: Reality, and what it means to you.

    I'm a bit intrigued now too, Fred. And I was going to ask more about the same line you did.

    Ross, as your purpose is to help us understand a bit more about your perspectives, and I'm definitely interested in understanding yours some more, based on other postings of yours, I don't suppose you could talk a bit more about where you come out in regards to that "random events versus determinism" question.


    P.S. Please don't think I'm doing anything to provoke. Only interested in building a better understanding. I've made some bad assumptions that I would rather forget.

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    Re: Reality, and what it means to you.

    Quote Originally Posted by seeker1972 View Post
    Ross, as your purpose is to help us understand a bit more about your perspectives
    Hi Seeker,

    I'm just starting with my perspectives to get the ball rolling...we all have our versions, and investigation of the diversity is the premise.


    My mistake, should be...Pre-determinism:

    Pre-determinism is the idea that all events are determined in advance. and is the philosophy that all events of history, past, present and future, have been already decided or are already known (by God, fate, or some other force), including human actions.

    I have a friend, cool dude and known him for years, intelligent academically, and a catholic...he believes in pre-determinisim, destiny is already mapped out.

    No different to general new age doctrine inasfar as the soul chooses this path...here on Earth, at this timeline, a determined event.

    I have argued with above examples, Jupiter, Saturn, asteroid...he counters that with, that was all pre-determined.

    Wade has noted ensouled...similar in ways, and my point is, while that notion lives in the possibility realm, it remains highly speculative.

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    Re: Reality, and what it means to you.

    Oh man. That goes straight into the reasons why I finally separated my beliefs from those that were handed to me at an early age. (Cradle-Catholic)

    There were just too many things that didn't add up, and the big kicker for me was when I tried to reconcile the notion of an omnipotent god who is all love, and this teaching that we get one life, and if you don't live it right, you burn in hades. This life might've been only 80 years in length, but you will pay for your shortsightedness for MILLIONS and millions of years. Forever!

    And god knew you would before he even made you. Come again?? And he still lovingly made me?

    The fun part for me was actually digging up some of the "treatises" from early church fathers who tried to create that reconciliation. "Oh yeah, we still have free will, but God, even though he gave you free will, already knew you wouldn't know what to do with it and you would wind up in the eternal trash can." Nothing but intelligent people trying to fit square pegs in round holes, for pages and pages.

    I've reached a point where I think that once your life gets going, there's an aspect of chance and dice rolling to the game, and an ability to steer your course however you want. There may or may not be some pre-determinism involved in setting up a purpose for your life, regardless of whether the individual in question had a hand in that (i.e., you existed in spirit and picked out your parents and stuff like some hypnotherapists teach), or whether it was just divine powers setting things up for you and you didn't exist yet. But even if there was, I'm sure lots of people show up in the afterlife saying, "Aw crap. Never even saw that bus that flattened me. That wasn't supposed to happen." Accidents and choices. *shrug* I dunno. Maybe someone who's up to speed on the latest in timeline theories could take it from there and talk about how there's a reality where I didn't get run over by that bus, and just barely missed it.

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    Senior Member Fred Steeves's Avatar
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    Re: Reality, and what it means to you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ross View Post
    random events versus pre-determinism....

    Quote Originally Posted by Fred Steeves View Post
    Ross, shouldn't that be free will versus determinism?
    That was a serious question Ross. I was thinking of joining in this thread, but first I wanted to be more sure of exactly where it is you're coming from. I'm not sure what "random events" means in this context, but "free will" is very clear.

    free will versus determinism is an old, well established philosophical argument, but I can't find the random events versus pre-determinism argument anywhere.

    I don't intend to get hung up on vernacular, it's not my style. But, I want to know what that means to you, before picking something to comment on. You lay a lot out there.


    Thanks,

    Fred
    Last edited by Fred Steeves; 03-26-2015 at 07:17 AM.
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    Re: Reality, and what it means to you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ross View Post
    I have a friend, cool dude and known him for years, intelligent academically, and a catholic...he believes in pre-determinisim, destiny is already mapped out.
    As a highly indoctrinated semi-non-practicing Catholic, I can with semi-confidence state the Catholic Doctrine does not support predetermination. I think your friend might have mis-interpreted the divine quality of omniscience. Free will is an intrinsic quality of creation. Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle is a hard example of that. Planck's constant is the finest grained 'observation' that physical humanity can apprehend. Below the parameters of that value lay some very interesting things I believe.

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    Re: Reality, and what it means to you.

    But Adam, isn't that like saying God is not omniscient? He has no clue what might happen from one minute to the next?

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    Senior Member Adam Bomm's Avatar
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    Re: Reality, and what it means to you.

    Hi Seeker,

    Not from my perspective...Knowing is not causing? We take our own steps...

    Adamm

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