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Thread: Reality, and what it means to you.

  1. #11
    Administrator Ross's Avatar
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    Re: Reality, and what it means to you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fred Steeves View Post
    free will versus determinism is an old, well established philosophical argument, but I can't find the random events versus pre-determinism argument anywhere.
    Heya Fred,

    Probably not...My own use of wording.

    Random events as an example, would be as written above in OP. Asteroid smacks the planet wiping out the Dino's. This allowed the small mammalians to flourish, literally. Evolution plays its role and here we are today.

    No Asteroid, no us in other words, so a random event is the cause. One could argue that asteroid was pre-determined by who or what to allow the right conditions for a bunch of really non symbiotic Humans to play virus...

    The early Primeval soup theory, random chemistry at play, non specific, right conditions and whalla.

    Hope that clears up the meanings for you.

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  3. #12
    Senior Member Fred Steeves's Avatar
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    Re: Reality, and what it means to you.

    Thanks for the clarification Ross, that was helpful. So I've got a couple of thoughts to toss out for you here. I see a lot of nuts and bolts science in your op's, Newtonian type balls on the billiard table material. Nothing wrong with that of course, it's fascinating, and gaining ever advanced knowledge of our multiverse should forever be a driving quest for mankind. But where do other branches of scientific study, such as quantum mechanics/physics, play into our sought after equation of reality? For example, what of findings such as in the famous double slit experiment? I mean but seriously folks, that sh it changes everything .

    Anyway, the other thing I have for you is going back to random events. That part of the random events versus pre-determination equation kind of bothers me a little bit, which is why I asked for clarification before commenting. The cold scientific part of me has a very hard time in recognizing random events, as I think reality can very likely be reduced to some sort of a mathematical equation. Although I'm by no means a mathematician, I believe that the math don't lie as they say, and that it abides by unbreakable rules. Random would not be a part of that rule set IMO.

    Well this in turn leads to the "spiritual" (whatever spiritual means any more...) part of me, even though my boundary lines between science and spirituality are becoming so stinkin blurred they're not really worth looking for any more. Take "The Kybalion" for instance. It certainly can't be confused as a cold scientific read, yet the initial quotes of chapter 12 "Causation" make perfect sense to the scientist in me:

    Every Cause has its Effect; every Effect has its cause; everything happens according to Law; Chance is but a name for Law not recognized; there are many planes of causation, but nothing escapes the Law.
    The great Sixth Hermetic Principle–the Principle of Cause and Effect–embodies the truth that Law pervades the Universe; that nothing happens by Chance; that Chance is merely a term indicating cause existing but not recognized or perceived; that phenomena is a continuous, without break or exception.
    I don't think this Law argues to the favor of pre-determinism either, as the cause/effect equation is always being slightly altered by every move we make.


    Cheers
    Last edited by Fred Steeves; 03-27-2015 at 02:30 PM.
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  5. #13
    Administrator Ross's Avatar
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    Re: Reality, and what it means to you.

    Hi fred,

    Cause and effect...exactly what it comes down to. Yet the Chicken or the egg scenario begs the question.

    The big Bang theory is losing ground slowly but surely, yet still not enough evidence to dismiss it entirely. The "inflation" Theory now is fact thanks to our observations with telescopes...which is the strongest argument in favour of the Big bang...yet we know all effects are from a caused occurrence. So, we are left with this:

    If something, such as the big bang occurred...then what caused that event? and if so, everything else that has occurred since then is the effect of it, the basis of the "big bang theory"...so in this example, effects are occurring yet "random" effects must still take place, as in a magnitude of possibility's, of possible effects, rather than a predetermind outcome.

    Kind of like a lucky dip... infinite possibilities of what you may pick out of the bag, "caused" by the bag holding contents in the first place, yet you dip in, unsighted and randomly grab out of the bag unknown what you will end up with ...if that makes sense to you?
    Last edited by Ross; 03-28-2015 at 04:47 PM.

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    Re: Reality, and what it means to you.

    Hey Ross

    Funny you mention the Big Bang since I have had many chats about that with Adam Trombly and we both have the same outlook, The big bang theory is flawed and does not describe the Universe as a whole (as opposed to the small speck of observable Universe we can see) I also believe at this point until some evidence to the contrary shows up that the Universe is Infinite (a nasty infinity,if you will) and Red Shift is just the effect of natural movement because nothing in space is static.

    Scott

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    Senior Member Zirka's Avatar
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    Re: Reality, and what it means to you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Scott View Post
    Hey Ross

    Funny you mention the Big Bang since I have had many chats about that with Adam Trombly and we both have the same outlook, The big bang theory is flawed and does not describe the Universe as a whole (as opposed to the small speck of observable Universe we can see) I also believe at this point until some evidence to the contrary shows up that the Universe is Infinite (a nasty infinity,if you will) and Red Shift is just the effect of natural movement because nothing in space is static.

    Scott
    I am in the same page re an infinite universe. No absolutes, no perfection, no identical.

    Creation is dynamic.

    I am OK with the state of not knowing it all and the vastness of this concept.

    Keeps me open minded. An open minded skeptic mind you, but open minded nonetheless.
    Last edited by Zirka; 03-27-2015 at 07:41 PM.

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    Senior Member Adam Bomm's Avatar
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    Re: Reality, and what it means to you.

    Hi Zirka,

    One of the best lines I ever heard was from the movie, "What the Bleep Do we know?" A respected theoretical physicist made the comment that "If history is any example most of what we believe to be true today is wrong" Words of true wisdom if I've ever heard them. I literally laughed with joy when I heard that.

    Adamm

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    Senior Member Zirka's Avatar
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    Re: Reality, and what it means to you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Bomm View Post
    One of the best lines I ever heard was from the movie, "What the Bleep Do we know?" A respected theoretical physicist made the comment that "If history is any example most of what we believe to be true today is wrong" Words of true wisdom if I've ever heard them. I literally laughed with joy when I heard that.
    Exactly, it is quite liberating to be in that head space.

    (I'm still insatiable with curiosity......doesn't hold me back one bit.)

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    Senior Member Fred Steeves's Avatar
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    Re: Reality, and what it means to you.

    I've never been much of a big bang person myself, it just doesn't make much sense to me. For all we know the genesis of this reality was the opening of some interdimensional doorway, and the expansion we see is due to a decompression type of effect caused by the opening, not by a huge ball of matter spontaneously combusting. Hell, at least that gives us some half assed explanation as to where all that matter came from in the first place. Well, it kicks the can down the road a little further anyway...

    I can speculate just as good as someone in a white coat with lots of letters behind their name. :whistle:
    Last edited by Fred Steeves; 03-28-2015 at 05:43 AM.
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    Senior Member Adam Bomm's Avatar
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    Re: Reality, and what it means to you.

    Hi Fred,

    One of the more recent eye openers was the discovery that the cosmos is accelerating rather than settling after the Big Bang scenario...back to the drawing board as the saying goes...

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  19. #20
    Administrator Ross's Avatar
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    Re: Reality, and what it means to you.

    "If history is any example most of what we believe to be true today is wrong"
    On the surface sure...but we must consider that in the last 100 years or so, our Scientific methods have vastly and exponentially improved. Our ability to develop tech tools, experiment, test and reproduce are at the heights of civilization.

    Any rational minded person understands that our level of knowledge in terms of understanding the "bigger picture" remains in an infancy, yet the last 10 years have produced incredible advancements in our ability to "test and evaluate" predictable math; theoretical physics...

    All Scientists in these fields, freely admit their ignorance and how in many areas of cosmology are clueless as to what "the" causes are from some observations.

    Our insatiable appetite for knowledge has had the effect of improved methods of observation and improved methods of evaluation...we are doing things far better than we ever have...to be fair.

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