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Thread: Did NASA land Men on the Moon?

  1. #31
    Senior Member Adam Bomm's Avatar
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    Re: Did NASA land Men on the Moon?

    I did look up power requirements for the laser but couldn't find a usable answer...I think the key is electrical energy requirements.

  2. #32
    Administrator Harley's Avatar
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    Re: Did NASA land Men on the Moon?

    OK my turn.

    Now this only regards this part of the Mythbusters Moon Hoax Debunking:

    Mythbusters Moon Hoax Retroreflectors


    There is no evidence here whatsoever that can be used as proof that we have ever actually landed a human being on the moon.

    Case in point:

    Optical Echoes from the Moon
    Without the use of Retro-Reflectors!
    (May 1962)


    1962 - Project "Luna See," headed by Professor Louis D. Smullin (left) and Dr. Giorgio Fiocco (right), successfully demonstrated high-power optical maser technology by being the first to bounce a laser beam off the moon's surface. High-intensity red light flashes were created by an optical maser (laser), sent through a transmitting telescope to the moon's surface, and detected with an optical receiver. This was the first time that space had been spanned by a laser light. Dr. Stanley Kass (center) from Raytheon discusses the experiment with Professor Smullin.
    So nice try Adam and Jamie, but you probably should've researched this yourselves before you went to all this trouble.

    Also some interesting side-notes:

    * 1946: Project Diana (an experimental project of the US Army Signal Corps in 1946 to bounce radar signals off the Moon and receive the reflected signals) - The first successful echo detection came on 10 January 1946 at 11:58am local time.

    * 2009: World Moon Bounce Day (an annual event celebrated worldwide to commemorate the Apollo 11 Moon landing) - Set a world record for the lowest power data signal returned from the Moon with a transmit power of 3 milliwatts - about 1,000th of the power of a strong flashlight filament globe.

    * Today: Amateur (Ham) Radio enthusiasts communicate by EME (Earth-Moon-Earth) regularly and on a daily basis with power levels as low as 100 Watts and frequencies as low as 50 MHz. (Retro-Reflectors? What the hell is That? )

    Mythbusters Moon Hoax Retroreflectors: BUSTED

    Harley

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  4. #33
    Senior Member Adam Bomm's Avatar
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    Re: Did NASA land Men on the Moon?

    Hi Harley,

    I'm no electrical engineer but bouncing a signal off the moon doesn't seem the equivalent of sending a targeted signal to a specific point?

    Adamm

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  6. #34
    Administrator Ross's Avatar
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    Re: Did NASA land Men on the Moon?

    Quote Originally Posted by Harley View Post
    So nice try Adam and Jamie, but you probably should've researched this yourselves before you went to all this trouble.
    I would suggest re-watching the experiment from the 37-8th min mark.

    I'm satisfied they indeed reflected back to Earth from a man-made retroreflector put there by some means...The precise locale dictates this.
    Last edited by Ross; 07-04-2017 at 04:52 PM.
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  8. #35
    Administrator Harley's Avatar
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    Re: Did NASA land Men on the Moon?

    I understand what you're both saying, but it appears to me that you didn't understand the gist of my post.

    No Retro-reflectors are needed to bounce even the weakest of signals, being light or RF, back from the moon.

    In order to bounce any signal back to you, you would have to direct it at the precise spot that will reflect it back at you. Otherwise your signal will refract and you won't receive it. In the woman's first shot she aimed it at a barren point on the moon and didn't receive a signal back. This was done for the benefit of the audience in order to highlight the fact that it bounces back when she aimed it to the coordinates of the Retro-Reflector. What I'm saying is that a reflector need not be there at all for her to get a signal back simply because she aimed it at the right position to get proper reflection directly back at her, but when she made the first shot it simply refracted off and away from her.

    My post examples simply prove that you do not need "Retro-Reflectors" placed on the moon in order to receive your bounced light/RF back at you. And they first did it with no reflectors back in 1962.

    So my point is, Adam and Jamie's little research video IS NOT "DEFINITIVE PROOF" (as they said) that astronauts landed on the moon.

    BTW, the Retro-Reflectors ARE THERE. But do you know why they placed them there? They already knew that they could bounce light and signals off the moon, but they placed the Retro-Reflectors there for RANGING purposes (to monitor the distance of the moon from the Earth). And as in any experiment/testing etc you want everything as duplicatable as possible.
    Harley

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  10. #36
    Administrator Harley's Avatar
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    Re: Did NASA land Men on the Moon?

    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Bomm View Post
    Hi Harley,

    I'm no electrical engineer but bouncing a signal off the moon doesn't seem the equivalent of sending a targeted signal to a specific point?

    Adamm
    I don't understand the problem here.

    In all of my EME/Moon Bounce examples, in order to hear or see your own signal it's going to have to be reflected back from a specific point.
    If you don't hit that specific point it still reflects (refracts) off but it won't be back at you.
    Harley

  11. #37
    Administrator Ross's Avatar
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    Re: Did NASA land Men on the Moon?

    Quote Originally Posted by Harley View Post
    but they placed the Retro-Reflectors there for RANGING purposes (to monitor the distance of the moon from the Earth). And as in any experiment/testing etc you want everything as duplicatable as possible.
    Yes, that's exactly the use, ranging.

    This method is precise opposed to bouncing of a wider surface as in your examples of earlier methods.

    The question is how they were placed...did Man place them or a probe of sorts. The positioning had to be accurate meaning not just 'anywhere and Man placement would have been the more precise method...however that still does not prove or disprove 'did Man land on the Moon.
    Last edited by Ross; 07-04-2017 at 06:34 PM.
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  13. #38
    Senior Member Adam Bomm's Avatar
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    Re: Did NASA land Men on the Moon?

    One thing I wasn't clear on was just how much power would be needed to send a coherent beam of light to the moon to a specific point. The power required to generate the LASER. If I understand you correctly that power level is not an issue. The technology existed in the 1960's and generating power was insignificant so it would have been desirable and useful to have the retro-reflectors in place.

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  15. #39
    Administrator Ross's Avatar
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    Re: Did NASA land Men on the Moon?

    This is helpful in understanding Adams questions concerning power needed when using retrorefectors.

    I was a grad student on the APOLLO (Apache Point Observatory Lunar Laser Ranging Operation) project that was shown on Mythbusters. The short answer is no way. You need laser that can shoot enough photons in a short pulse that you'll get some back in the return pulse (shoot 1017 green 532 nm photons per pulse). You need sensitive detectors because, even if you shoot 1017 photons up, you're only going to get about 1 photon back (we used avalanche photodiodes). You need fancy filters and timing electronics, because, when you are only getting 1 photon back, you need to turn the detectors on in as little a time as possible to minimize false detections from background light. You need a big telescope to maximize the number of photons you get (we used the 3.5 meter telescope at Apache Point). And you need to set this all up in a place with minimal background light and minimal atmospheric distortion (seeing). http://physics.ucsd.edu/~tmurphy/apollo/apparatus.html I guess you could do all these things on your own, but you would need about $1 million and a couple years of time to set it up.
    This is why Mythbusters had to use The Apache point Observatory...and why I wrote in post #34
    I would suggest re-watching the experiment from the 37-8th min mark.
    And Harleys statement for this particular experiment,
    Mythbusters Moon Hoax Retroreflectors: BUSTED
    is inaccurate.
    Last edited by Ross; 07-05-2017 at 03:48 PM.
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